Boyd Rice Interview
from MISANTHROPE

by Chris A. Masters

 

MISANTHROPE: First of all welcome to Australia.

BOYD RICE: Thank you, it's good to be here.

M: I hear that you're involved in a film, PEARLS BEFORE SWINE, could you tell us something about that.

BR: I play this fascistic hitman, who's into kinky sex and the S & M scene, who goes around killing people and having a lot of weird sex.

M: What's the film about?

BR: Oh . . . the thing's changed a bit. I used to have a standard answer I gave for that, but now it's hard to say. I'm hired to assassinate somebody who wrote a book promoting certain wars, violence and sex. It's about my normal daily life. Going around working for the government. Sort of killing homeless kids and stuff. But the whole thing is building up to the assassination of this author.

M: Is this the first film that you've been involved with?

BR: No, I've got sort of a cameo or whatever in a film called, GRACE OF MY HEART, by Allison Andrews, it's executive produced by Martin Scorcese. It's about a woman who writes songs in the Grail building in the Sixties and I play Leigh Hazleworth, if you know who that is.

M: No. But I may have heard the name.

BR: He did all those songs with Nancy Sinatra. Yeah, so I put on a moustache to look like Leigh Hazleworth and wear this sort of fake nankeen weasand.

M: ! understand that you're quite a film buff. You wrote a lot of Re/Search's INCREDIBLY STRANGE FILMS . . .

BR: Yeah, I kind of pitched the idea to them, even though they've forgotten at this point. Each of them thinks it was their idea. Like "It's the best idea I've ever had!!" "No that was my idea." [Laughs.]

M: l was going to ask you about your association with Re/Search. You've stated elsewhere that you're not too happy with the way they've treated you.

BR: Yeah, well they just decided I wasn't a nice guy at a certain point and they stopped paying me my money on the film book royalties, which must be up into the thousands of dollars now.

M: Why would they think that you weren't a nice guy. Did you play one of your famous pranks on them, what's the story here?

BR: No, no. I was very pleasant to them. It's that at a certain point they decided that I was a deficit. They'd gotten all these ideas from me: like the ideas for the film book [INCREDIBLY STRANGE FILMS], the PRANKS book, and all this stuff came from me. They made a fortune off me.

M: Did they acknowledge that these ideas came from you?

BR: Basically, you know, because I'm involved in both books . . . and I'm one of the few people in the PRANKS book who actually did pranks. So, you know my chapter in that actually makes a big impression on people when they read the whole book. So, you know, I've had plenty of feedback on that, plenty of acknowledgment.

But they told people that I underwent some sort of Jeckyl and Hyde transformation. Like I was this really nice guy who became an asshole overnight. But the fact is I was always an asshole.

M: Yes, the world needs more assholes.

BR: [Laughs.] Mmm.

M: You've got a reputation as a shit-stirrer. l was wondering if you could enlighten us about what "franking" is all about?

BR: It started out when I was a kid. I always assumed that I was going to be a criminal when I grew up. I thought, what can I do to fit into this world? You know, l didn't want to hold a job five days a week, eight hours a day, so I thought well, I'm a criminal. So my pranks were basically a form of, an expression of sociopathic behaviour or something. It was kind of trying to see how you could fuck with people, get them to do what you want. . . make the rats go through the maze the way you want them to go through. So a lot of it I think was that. Plus, when I was younger I was very misanthropic, and it was just kind of like my way of getting back at people. Sort of screwing people but having fun at the same time.

M: Are you still a misanthrope?

BR: Oh, yes. Dye in the wool misanthrope.

M: Could you tell us about a couple of your favourite pranks that you have done?

BR: I like the one where I got the woman to beat her child over the phone. I said I was from the Animal Control Bureau, and that her child had been seen in the yard holding these deadly, poisonous snakes. And she was saying, "My son doesn't have any snakes. I'm sure if he had I'd know." Eventually I convinced the woman that her son did have snakes but he was hiding them from her. Keeping them under the bed- or something. So she calls the kid in and says, "Do you have any snakes? This man is from the government now, I want you to tell me." The kid says, "No mom I don't have any snakes." So she comes back on the phone and she says, "My son says he doesn't have any snakes, and he wouldn't lie to me, my son's never lied to me." But still I hammered away at her, ( said, "Look, if a snake gets out and kills somebody in your neighbourhood, your son's not going to be responsible for a crime, you will be." And so I fear-batter her into believing that her son did have these snakes and she called him in again screaming, "You little liar! You tell me where those snakes are!" And the kid's going, "I don't have any man!" And she's slapping the kid around . . . . I thought that was a good one.

We did one, maybe it was a year ago, I'm not sure . . . . In San Francisco you can buy blood, cow's blood, from these Asian soup butcher places, and you know, make pudding out of it or whatever. So I'd always buy containers of blood and do stuff. Like I'd go to a nice restaurant and go in (to the toilet) and like take a razor blade and put blood on it and leave it on the thing and pour blood all over the basin and leave bloody hand-prints all over the place and drip blood out to the door and down the hallway. People would come in and think somebody killed themselves in there or something.

We did one with blood when we went on the bus at rush hour. The buses in San Francisco are so crammed with people you can barely move We got on at the very first stop when there was nobody on the bus and we waited until the bus was loaded and just poured this huge container of blood on the floor, and there was this puddle that was about like three feet long and a couple of feet wide. Every time the bus started up the puddle would go a bit more toward the back and every time (the driver) put on the brakes it would go another foot or so toward the front. After a very short while it started stinking like, you know . . . a slaughterhouse or something. And people would get on the bus and people would be saying to them, "Be careful, don't step in the blood." And other people would be saying, "That can't be blood, it must be strawberry preserves or something."

M: Blood gets really sticky too.

BR: Yeah. Yeah. [Laughs.] It sticks. And then my friend would say, "I hope that blood isn't tainted with AIDS." And then people would really be like, leaping to get over it, and try not to step on it. Like, the doors would open and the blood was going down on the steps to get off to the street, and people would be leaping over the steps and into the street, you know, not to step on the blood. They then said it was put there by some AIDS activists or something like that.

M: Have you tried pig's blood, because that really smells?

BR: Pig's blood doesn't look like human blood though. Pig's blood is thinner, it's more watery. Initially I wanted to buy pig's blood, just because it sounds good. You know, "Pig's blood!"

M: Here you can only get blood from butchers or from slaughteryards or meat markets, but that's only if you know someone who'll give you or sell you some under the counter like.

BR: The state I live in now (Colorado) you can't even buy it.

M: Tell us about the Abraxas Foundation. I understand that you formed it.

BR: Yeah. It was a period of time when I'd met like about four or five different people and they were all into exactly like the same line of thought that I was into. We'd sort of taken all of these disparate elements and put them all together into this cohesive picture. We kind of felt like this was a thing with a certain amount of power and its time, had come and we had to kind of actively spread this word around and put the word out there in the world.

M: So what was the word?

BR: It's kind of you know. . . the name-comes from the Gnostic deity Abraxas, that's an old deity that combines the power of Light and Dark, I mean, Good and Evil, Creative Force and Destructive Force.

M: You mean something like the old Process Church?

BR: Yeah. Very much like that. But there was a time in the world when this was the origin of all that existed. It wasn't just people talking about Christ and Satan joining forces. I mean, it was actually like a God that combined all of these forces. And I think that's what's needed . . . for future evolution, because all of the world's theologies talk about the idea of Oneness, yet they all have things split up, and I think that's what's made Man so neurotic and schizophrenic in his approach to life is that He has this concept of Oneness, but yet you're supposed to tend towards the Light and shun the darkness. How can you after "All is One". You know the Dark has to be there as well. And you have to recognise 'what function it serves within the Light.

M: Yeah. A lot of the Eastern religions or philosophies talk about taking the Middle Path, where you're not meant to be too bad buff not too good either.

BR: Most of the Eastern religions you see are too passive to me. I think it suits, you know, that mentality very well. It works maybe in that part of the world. Even in Japan, they're into Buddhism and stuff, but their original religion is Shinto, which is like a Japanese form of Odinism or something. It's a really harsh, warlike religion, and they're aware that they've lost that. There are people there trying to bring that back.

That's how Christianity came into the West. People giving up their great old gods.

M: You're recognised as one of the pioneers of Industrial Music with your work with NON. How do you see the current state of Industrial music with bands like Nine Inch Nails and Ministry gaining mainstream acceptance as "Industrial" bands?

BR: I haven't heard much of that stuff. I just heard one thing by Ministry, which didn't grab me, and I've heard a few things by Nine Inch Nails . . . . Like friends of mine know him (Trent Reznor) . . . . I'm supposed to maybe go to his house, they're (Nine Inch Nails) recording an album at his house in New Orleans at the end of August. I'm supposed to maybe go there and stay at the house and help with their album or something. I know people who have met him (Trent Reznor) and say that his heart's in the right place and that he's an admirer of mine or something.

This new Industrial stuff to me just seems like modern disco.

M: When you were doing it in the Seventies, the technology was nothing like what's around now. You had to do nearby everything physically by using tape loops, etc., it was really hands on, now it's just a matter of getting the equipment and pressing a few buttons.

BR: Yeah. Firstly, it's easier for me to get stuff done. The stuff that would have taken hours at one time, now I just do in a few minutes because of the technology. But I think that at the same time the technology is opening the door for a lot of people that don't have ideas. They can reproduce or mimic the format or the structure or whatever . . . . When I started doing the stuff there was nothing like it. I did it because I genuinely wanted to. I wanted to listen to noise. I wanted to listen to music that was repetitive and would put me in a different state of mind. Now it's just another option.

M: At that time it was pretty much yourself and a few bands in Europe that were really experimenting with noise.

BR: Yeah, it was just like a handful of people.

Even the people who were like considered originators in the whole field, when you were around at the time, you could see the lag time between when people really started doing it. and started to be recognised. And then when these other people came . . . . I mean people like Whitehouse who are considered originators of this form of Industrial Music, and they really came on the scene much later.

M: What sort of music do you like to listen to?

BR: Everything. Classical music. Weird Country and Western music. Pop music.

M: I've heard that you're a bit of an ABBA fan.

BR: Yeah, totally. I'm just into anything that can affect you emotionally, or make you feel different… I think stuff like that should be functional. Like the early music I did was functional that is did what I wanted it to do. But at this point in my life I'm less interested in structureless stuff. So I don't know about a lot of things that are going on. Like all the Japanese noise stuff. Like you know, I'd rather put on one of these easy listening records and listen to something that can soothe my nerves.

M: Do your nerves really need soothing?

BR: [Laughs.] No, not really. When I'm in my house alone I like to have something on that creates an atmosphere. So it's like my house is its own little total environment.

M: Okay, let's get into some of the rumours that have been circulated about you. This is stuff I've come across in various publications and from talking to different people. if I could just ask you to confirm or deny these. Look upon it as a chance to set the record straight.

BR: Okay.

M: Are you a mad Satanist?

BR: I am a Satanist. I don't know if I'm a mad Satanist. I am a member of The Council of Nine in Anton LaVey's Church of Satan. I think Satanism's a very functional thing. I think that's the path back to God at this point, because I think people need to have that God that is like Abraxas that combines Good and Evil. I think that's a perfect schematic for understanding the Universe and the world around you. And I think to be totally into God or totally into Satan is kind of you know . . . [shrugs shoulders]

M: l find that extremists of any faith tend to be very one-sided and close-minded. The best word to describe them. I think, is loony.

BR: [Laughs.] Yeah, but Satanism, especially LaVey's brand of Satanism is very misunderstood. A lot of people asked me to explain it. I've been explaining it for the past ten years and I'm sick to death of it. If somebody wants to know what Anton LaVey's all about they can go

M: And read his books.

BR: - and buy his books, yeah.

M: Are you a Neo-Nazi would-be terrorist?

BR: [Laughs.] No. I feel that I'm a fascist, but Nazi" is a real specific term.

M: This is dust what I've read.

BR: Yeah. That's what everybody says.

M: Your chance to clarify this once and for all.

BR: I've clarified it once and for all many many times, but you know, I'm a fascist in the sense of the modern bastardised meaning of the word. I'm completely against democratic values and liberalism. I think that they have very little to do with life on Earth. I think they're an ideological abstraction. Man's tried to make his entire world conform to this ideological abstraction and obviously hasn't.

M: And never will.

BR: And never will, yeah.

M: When you look around it just doesn't function in practice.

BR: It doesn't. You can keep, or you can prop up a fake system like that for hundreds of years, if you've got the desire, but it's just like falling to pieces. Especially in the United States, things are just getting worse and worse. It's becoming more and more obvious that it's not working.

M: The problem with Australia is that we tend to follow the worst examples, all the USA's fuck ups you might say.

BR: [Laughs.] I don't know. It seems to me that Australians tend to have more of a sense of national identity. It seems like, you know, you m fight think that you're following the ways of the United States but when you come here after being in the United States it's just like a world apart, it totally is.

M: So when you say that you're against Democracy you think that most people aren't fit to make up their own minds about how their life should be run.

BR: Yeah. Does it make sense "one man one vote"? It's. like the people who create everything in the world and make everything function are a real small small minority, and the rest of the people kind of go which way They go. Why should these people be dictating the content of how things run?

M: l prefer to call them "sheeple" rather than people.

BR: Oh yeah. Yeah.

M: Because basically wherever they live, in whatever society or culture, they follow. They're so easily manipulated by those in power and the media which is controlled by those in power. For example, in the U.S. a president was almost voted into power by the use of the slogan "Where's the beef?"

BR: [Laughs.] Was that Reagan?

M: Yeah. When the voting process operates on that sort of mass stupidity, maybe you're right, they don't deserve that sort of power.

BR: Yeah they don't. Right. I mean are you going to have someone with a Ph.D. putting his vote in the Ballot Box and his vote is cancelled off by somebody who's a borderline retard.

M: Exactly.

BR: It makes absolutely no sense. If democracy were what people say it is it would be mob rule. Nobody likes mob rule.

M: With modern democracy, what's meant to be happening is that we vote in a representative of the people, someone who is meant to be a lot smarter and better versed in the way things work than most of the people. But most politicians aren't all that smart.

BR: No. That's the problem of politics is that involves politicians. There was like a really good movement in the United States called Technocracy where they wanted the government to be run by engineers, by people who understood w things operated.

M: So how would Boyd Rice's ideal system of government work

BR: I think it would be a meritocracy. My thing in life isn't like going around trying to promote my idea) form of government or anything. I'm really unpolitical. But I think meritocracy is the only thing that would make sense, where your level of rights and your level of everything would be dictated by your competence or your level of intelligence or your productivity. So it would be like the whole class at the top would have all sorts of rights that the people in the middle didn't and the whole class of people at the bottom would have virtually none.

M: It always seems to me that the most useless and stupid people are the ones that have the most children, and their children end up just as stupid and useless as their parents. It's sort of like this self-perpetuating chain of mediocrity.

BR: It's not even self-perpetuating, because the people at the bottom are just growing exponentially while the people at the top and in the middle aren't having as many children. So those numbers are just going to drag everybody down. Because as it is now, you work a week and two of those days go to the government as money to support these other people who are worthless and unproductive.

M: Back to the rumours. Are you a misogynist?

BR: Yeah.

M: Nods fervently for the record.

BR: [Laughs.] Yeah, more and more all the time.

M: What makes you feel that ways

BR: Just a lot of experience with women. I don't think women deserve the same rights as men. I don't think women are on an equal footing with men. I think they're totally different creatures. I think the world operated better when they had less say over how the way things went, had less control.

I mean I just broke up with a girl who has a genius level I.Q. and she has absolutely no common sense. I mean she can't think her way out of a paper bag. She's literally a genius, her I.Q. is 150 or something, and yet I could see that she was just ruled by her emotions, that her emotions weren't rooted in any part of her intelligence. I feel that people like that are totally unfit to be in public office or in positions where, you know, where anything is required more than just . . . [waves arms and shakes shrugs]

M: The feminists, feminazis as I prefer to toll them, often talk about how Patriarchy has created call of the problems in the world. But when l see women getting into positions of power where they can change things, they fuck it up even worse than the men.

BR: The Patriarchy hasn't existed for years and years. How can you judge how . . .

M: I'm talking about the way the feminazis see it, from their point of view. When they say that Men are responsible for everything that is happening in the world. My reply to that is, yes Men are responsible, if it wasn't for Men there would be nothing, no culture, no technology, nothing.

BR: Yeah. It's like if they really hate men as much as they claim to, they should put their money where their mouth is, and they should boycott anything that is a bi-product of male intelligence. Which means they can't sit in a chain they can't drive a car, they can't turn on the electric light, they wouldn't even live in a house, because all those things were created by men.

M: They couldn't even have their tampons.

BR: [Laughs.] Yeah, well I think too we should go back to a time when there was a "menstrual shed". And for a certain number of days a month they would go in there and be in the menstrual shed.

M: Yes, buff even the menstrual shed would have been made by a man. [At this point we both pause to have a good laugh.] From here, I suppose the logical next question is to ask you about your essay "R.A.PE." or "Revolt Against Penis Envy-"' [appeared in ANSWER Me #4). It was obviously written with tongue firmly in cheek, but I also sensed a streak of seriousness in there.

BR: That was at least half serious. Because everything in it is basically true. It's obviously an idea taken to its logical extreme. It was really sort of taking Andrea Dworkin and those kind of extreme feminists and saying, "Okay, yes, let's say everything you say is true. It's true but it's good. It should be that way. Men are fascist assholes. Yes, and men are all not only rapists, but they should be rapists."

M: My theory with Dworkin is that she's so fucking ugly and revolting and she can't get any.

BR: [Laughs.] Yeah. I heard this excellent little story. Someone I knew, knew somebody who was house-sitting for Andrea Dworkin and she was in the bed reading, like eleven o'clock at night, and this alarm next to the bed goes off, buzzes or whatever, and Andrea Dworkin's dog comes running through the house, leaps up on the bed, puts its snout between this woman's legs and starts eating her pussy. So like this woman had her dog trained to come in at the sound of a bell and eat her out.

M: [Laughs.] Probably smells like raw meat that's why.

BR: [Laughs.] You just wonder if it was CI male dog or a female dog.

M: [Laughs.] Definitely a bitch. So what did you have in mind when you wrote "R.A.P.E." Did you decide, pardon the pun, to poke a bit of fun at one of our most sacred taboos?

BR: I was poking a bit of fun, but it's like there's more than a grain of truth in everything I said in there. I think all the stuff I said was basically true. Which is why it's funny when it's funny. And it's why it upsets women, when it upsets women. Because, you know, they can't really deny most of that stuff.

M: As you said, they react on an emotional level, which is how they react to the article, and it` what you say in the article is true they have to react that way to it. And when they, do and you point it out the whole thing just becomes more upsetting to them.

BR: Well that's why when women start having these intellectual arguments with me I say at a certain point, "Listen, I refuse to even argue with a woman." They say, "Well, why is that?" and I say, "Because you overreact, you get al! emotional, and fly into a tizzy. At that, every single woman responds…

[pause here to change tapes]

Going back to what I was saying before, when I say women can't have an intelligent discourse because they're over-emotional. That just sets them off and they fly into a tizzy and go [yells in a high pitched frantic voice ere], "Whatta ya mean I'm emotional!! Whatta ya mean we can't hold an intelligent discourse!!" And you know, that's like the end of it. You say, "See, there, you proved it.

M: And then they yell even louder. Have you had- much reaction from the feminists after that article?

BR: No, not really.

M: I thought the. article was one of the funniest things in that issue (ANSWER Me # 4).

BR: [Laughs.] Thank you.

M: I think with Revolt Against Penis Envy you did strike a core in a lot of men. A lot of the men who have allowed themselves to get beaten down, l think, would actually Like to say a lot those things but are afraid to.

BR: Yeah, yeah. That's totally what I found. A lot of men might not be able to articulate it, but it exists in there as a feeling. Everyone who has come up to me after reading it says, "Hey that was CI great article."

M: Back to the rumours.

BR: Okay.

M: Are you an anti-gay queer-basher?

BR: No. No, but when I lived in San Francisco, they were just so vocal and agitating. They were just so politically correct and so wanting to just censor, or get back at anybody who was promoting any ideas of inequality, or this, that, and the other. They were just so in-your-face that they really fucking annoyed me. I mean I really did hate them when I lived in San Francisco. When I moved to Denver, we ran into homosexuals in Denver, and they were just like real kind of easy going. Their identity isn't tied to some tight little political agenda. Because all these people I know; like Doug from Death In June and the guys in Coil, they're gay, but they don't tie their whole identity into their sexuality, they don't take it a step further and tie it into some political agenda where everybody's equal and all that crap.

M: The problem with gays is that they are no different than the rest of the population in the sense that most of them are totally stupid, ninety-five percent of them are sheeple.

BR: [Laughs.] Yeah.

M: And the ones l tend to hate are the ones that fall within that stupid and ignorant ninety-five percent. The fact that they're annoying isn't because they're homosexual but because they're stupid.

BR: And whose identities are tied into whatever happens to be fucking going on, whether they're Satanists - you know, they're always going, "I'm a Satanist! I'm a Satanist!" And vegetarians who are always on about being vegetarian. It's like - big fucking deal. If you don't wanna eat meat, don't eat meat. Don't make into a goddamn religion.

M: The world would be better off if they fucking ate each other.

BR: Yeah.

M: Are you a maniac psychopath? ! actually read something where someone described you using that exact term.

BR: A maniac psychopath!? Pertaining to what?

M: I was reading an interview with some - l can't remember who - someone in a band., and your name happened to crop up, and their response was something like, "Oh l won't have anything to do with him, he's a maniac psychopath!"'

BR: It's funny, and I'm intrigued, that I'm perceived as some sort of criminal or something. I mean what have I done? People like compare me to Adolph Hitler or Charles Manson or something. Whether you believe Manson is guilty of the murder of those people or not . . . I mean, like I haven't ever been associated with anything like that.

M: Haven't you had contact with Manson?

BR: I used to be on his visiting list in San Quentin. I visited him a number of times. But again, that's like something people still talk about, like I'm a member of the Manson Family or something. I haven't approached him (Charles Manson) for like, eight or nine years.

M: You've also been outspoken on Liberal Humanists and Christians.

BR: I have more tolerance now for Christians, because I feel that it really is a slave religion and that there should be a hierarchy within theologies. A certain amount of the population does deserve a slave creed. I used to think that [Christianity] was something that was just making everybody weak and confused. Now I feel that most people need it. Most people are weak and confused, and they do need some really simplistic doctrine.

M: Yeah, exactly. People get the God they deserve.

BR: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You can't hand those kind of people an elitist ideology and say "Do what thou wilt." Because they don't have the strength to carry it through; they don't have the intelligence to organise their life that way. They're happier under some form of oppression. ( think people really thrive under oppression and they just flounder under conditions of liberty.

M: Most people need to be led, they need everything set out in black and white, everything written down in simple rules.

BR: Exactly. There's nothing wrong with that. I used to be against that. I used to think, oh that's the kind of oppression that's keeping people from attaining their real potential.

M: My theory is that a lot of the decline that's happening in our culture, is because that a lot of the people have stopped believing in these simplistic philosophies like Christianity.

BR: Totally.

M: And it's taken away their sense of identity and morality and everything else.

BR: And then they seek, you know, instead of not needing an identity, because everything's spelled out for them, that's when they get into these fringe things: like their identity is being homosexual, their identity is being a Vegan, or whatever.

M: They need something, something to

replace what they've lost, and because of that a whole lot of belief systems have cropped up. They need to fill that gap. They don't have the intelligence to take that leap and say that "Yes I am my own redeemer, I can think for myself." They just can't handle the idea of being responsible.

BR: They totally can't.

M: Okay, let's look at Satanism. [Boyd suddenly looks bored here] I know you've spoken about this a lot in the U.S., but in Australia not much is really known about the subject. In Australia this is still new.

BR: Okay.

M: You said earlier that you're on The Council. of Nine in the Church of Satan.- Can you tell us more about that, unless of course you're bound by oaths of secrecy.

BR: About how I got into it or what?

M: Yeah.

BR: I guess I got into the occult when I was a kid. I was probably about twelve years-old or something. When I was thirteen Anton LaVey's SATANIC BIBLE came out. I read it. I had pictures of him on my wall. I'd always look at these pictures and think: now this is a cool guy, because he's obviously living entirely to his law, and yet he can manage to make it in the real world. So I admired that. I always thought that it would be great to grow up and be a person like him and do exactly what you want and have a pet lion, and his house is painted black, and all that stuff. I just thought it was cool.

When I grew up and moved to San Francisco I knew a lot people who knew him. They were always saying, "Boyd, you're gotta meet Anton LaVey, because he's into the exact same things you're into." I thought, oh yeah, eventually it would probably happen. And eventually I did meet him, and we hit it off and became best of pals. He made me a priest in his church. Then he made me a Magister in his church and then he made me a member of The Council of Nine.

M: Anton LaVey is someone I've admired for a long time and someone I'd be interested in meeting myself.

BR: He's an amazing fucking guy. And he's like one of these people - like the stuff we were talking about just now, he was saying that in the Sixties when nobody was saying it. I mean it wasn't trendy in the Sixties to say you should hate your enemy. Everybody was talking about love love love, all you need is love.

M: That's one of the things that appeals to me about Satanism. It promotes responsibility. It does promote hate. Of course you should hate your enemies. Of course you should hate what deserves to be hated. Certain things deserve my hate.

BR: Yeah.

M: I mean how can you love your enemy when you're being slapped in the face? That's totally stupid.

BR: It's totally stupid. But if you want a group of people to be docile and serve, it's obviously a good creed to get them believing.

M: You're also fascinated by the Third Reich, especially it's darker aspects, the cool uniforms . . .

BR: That's another thing I've been fascinated with ever since I was a child. We had war TV shows on, and I'd always thought that the Nazis should win instead of the U.S. because the U.S. looked like a bunch of unkempt slobs and the Nazi's were always really elegant. I always thought anybody who can design a uniform that much better looking must be superior therefore deserved to win. So I was interested in him (Adolph Hitler). People think that interest made me hate Jews and all that stuff, but I think there's a lot that's fascinating about the Nazis. We don't have to want to have another Holocaust to find it fascinating.

M: A lot of it has become lost in all the hate that has come after the Holocaust. They want us to believe. that everything about the Third Reich was bad, but when you look at it, after World War One Germany was in a complete mess, and it was the Nazis who turned them from that into the most advanced and powerful country in the world at that time. I mean, like a friend of mine pointed out to me recently, if Hitler had died in 1939 and the war hadn't happened, that he would have gone down as one of the greatest men of this century.

BR: Yeah, Hitler got a lot done in that twelve years.

M: Anyway, suppose that about covers it. Thanks for the interview.

BR: Sure.