Social Scientist Alfred Schobert talks about right wing radicalism and the tendency to violence within the Gothic movement.

Schobert, 35, works at the "Institute for Languages and Social Research" in Duisburg, Germany. His book "Paganism, Music And Terror" will be published in autumn.

SPIEGEL: It is said that both assassins in Littleton were admirers of Adolf Hitler as well as devoted followers of the Gothic movement also known as "Grufties" here in Germany. Are all these people right wing extremists?

SCHOBERT: Of course not. The vast majority of the Gothics in Germany and other countries are peaceful and gentle. But a minority group of fascists exists. The peaceful people shouldn't have doubts about that. As a result of that a group of "Gothics against Facism" (Grufties gegen Rechts) was founded.

SPIEGEL: How can a layperson recognize militant Gothics? Black trenchcoats like the ones the members of the "Trenchcoat Maffia Littleton" used to wear?

SCHOBERT: A lot of the media now spreads a lot of rubbish telling that a black trenchcoat is the trademark of the whole movement. Even the use of common Nazi symbols like the sunwheel from the Wewelsburg which a lot of Gothics wear nowadays does not allow a clear correlation. These symbols and runes are often used in lack of knowledge.

SPIEGEL: Do weapons belong to the standard equipment of a devoted Gothic?

SCHOBERT: No, at most they use teargas to defend themselves. A lot of them have troubles with Nazi Skinheads, particularly the male androgyn Gothics.

SPIEGEL: Are Gothics vulnerable to right wing ideologies?

SCHOBERT: The Gothic movement is attractive to unsteady and doubtful characters. Especially in Germany the movement consists of studied middle-class pupils who are longing for ideals and esoterism. Therefore they are vulnerable to the so-called "New Right" (Neue Rechte). Many of the european Gothics model themselves on esoteric ideals from the SS like Karl-Maria Wiligut. He was an advisor of Heinrich Himmler.

Gothic Star Rice ("kick aside the weak and frail")

SPIEGEL: What about the situation in the USA?

SCHOBERT: There you'll find Boyd Rice among others. He invented the Abraxas foundation in Denver, a think tank for Social Darwinism. Listen to Rice's CDs and you'll hear paroles like "kick aside the weak..." He combines that with satanic statements and Goebbels quotations "do you want total war?..." He uses all kinds of ideological issues ad nauseum.

SPIEGEL: And that's the kind of think tank the High School Killers relate to?

SCHOBERT: I don't know. It's for sure that there are processes of creeping aesthetic phasing going on, affected by beliefs of an apocalyptic battle. In fact not everyone who bloviates about Odin becomes a violent perpetrator. But no one can say for sure that some people of this movement won't freak out in that direction.

SPIEGEL: Whitsuntide in Leipzig is close and the Wave Gothic Festival (Wave-Gotik-Treffen) welcomes 20.000 fans from all over the world. A dangerous situation in terms of public safety?

SCHOBERT: Nonsense! But there are a few projects with a fascist impact. For example the band Kirlian Camera from Italy. The band uses original audio-documents from the leader of the fascist Iron Guard in Romania, namely Corneliu Zelea Codreanu. The bands says that they want to build a monument in his honour.

SPIEGEL: The majority of the fans surely don't know what's behind the Iron Guard.

SCHOBERT: Political ignorance is widely spread in the Gothic movement. But at the end of one concert by Kirlian Camera the musicians left the stage after presenting the fascist salute (Hitlergruß). Many of the Gothics were shocked by that.