BB: How was this last tour?

NON: It went really well.

BB: Was it just in the US?

NON: Yeah, it was just the West Coast.

BB: You toured with ELECTRIC HELLFIRE CLUB. What did you think of them?

NON: I liked ELECTRIC HELLFIRE CLUB, but I mean, I don’t listen to much current music at all anymore really… too busy. But yeah, it went really good and in Portland, there was even an actual riot and people were having bottles broken over their heads, fist fights. It was really amazing.

BB: That stuff is usually what makes a show great.

NON: Yeah, it was like… ELECTRIC HELLFIRE CLUB only got to do three songs, but we all felt that it was the best show of the tour. At least it was the most fun for us. Plus, it’s good to do three songs and then pack up and go on to the next place.

BB: And get paid for it!

NON: Yeah, get paid for doing three songs instead of having to do 45 minutes worth.

BB: Once INTEGRITY got paid to go home instead of playing because of trouble before the show even started.

NON: Great!

BB: What record or records did you sample for your first release, commonly known as the "Black" album?

NON: I don’t know, I mean, all sorts of things. This was the old day, it was before samplers so I mean they aren’t actual samples, but I guess essentially it’s the same thing, but it was all sorts of things. I did it around 1975 or something so it’s been a while.

BB: What made you decide to start recording this type of music?

NON: Just because I became really dissatisfied with the kind of music I was listening to and I wanted music to kind of create an atmosphere for me to and alter my physical environment. Nothing was really doing that. I was doing stuff with photography, and I just decided that the things I was doing in photography, I could apply to music and create something just as interesting.

BB: How did you come to decide on the name NON?

NON: I just liked the way it looked. It just implied something to me. Plus, it was right at the beginning of punk rock and everybody was anti this and anti that and I was getting sick of the word anti, but I wanted to come up with something that implied being against everything, but not specifically being reactionary.

BB: Have you ever noticed the similarities between the NINE INCH NAILS logo and yours?

NON: Yeah, everybody’s noticed it. I think even the president of my record company actually talked to Trent Reznor and brought that up.

BB: He’s from Cleveland and a lot of people around here don’t like him. I don’t like him because I had his grandpa’s shitty Reznor heaters in my building and they sucked.

NON: I’ve seen those Reznor heaters and I always wondered if there was a connection.

BB: Were they working.

NON: I don’t know, but I know a lot of people who know him and they all basically say he’s an okay guy and that I’d probably like him if I met him.

BB: Let’s move away from Trent and go back to 1980 when you appeared on the "Darker Scratcher" compilation. Your song with Daniel Miller is great. Where did you get the sample of the woman speaking throughout the piece?

NON: There were a series of records they used to sell in supermarkets in the 60’s, and they were basically to sort of brainwash your kids to alter your children’s behavior.. They were called sub-audio learning. You’re supposed to play them while your children were asleep, then your children would wake up and would have picked up on the message. I got them from a friend of mine whose parents used to actually play that record to all the kids every single night.

BB: Your NON release on that same comp. Ends in a locked groove. When did you start using locked grooves and where did you get the idea?

NON: It just seemed obvious to me. I think, you know the record I put out in 1978 I did that, but I’d had the idea a long time.

BB: With "Pagan Muzak", you packaged a 7" in a 12" sleeve and one side of it’s clean, plus you drilled a hole off axis. What made you think of that?

NON: That just seemed like an obvious idea too. Ever since I was a kid I was playing records off center because they sounded unusual, and when it came time to release my own record I thought, I want an extra hole so people can play it of center.

BB: Did you drill all the holes yourself?

NON: I drilled most of them. I know on the re-release of the single, Frank from FAD GADGET drilled a whole bunch of them.

BB: When "Ragnarock Rune" came out, were people pissed off thinking they had just bought a blank record?

NON: Evidently a whole bunch of people still think it’s just a record with nothing on it but an etching.

BB: Who comes up with the ideas for your packaging?

NON: I do.

BB: Speaking of packaging, what do you think about MASONNA?

NON: Who?

BB: He’s one of the greatest live noise performers I’ve ever seen. He’s from Japan. He played here recently with MERZBOW and they were great. Their product packaging is incredible.

NON: The Japanese are great with packaging. You should see the book about the Manson Family called "The Family" by Ed Sanders.

BB: I have that book.

NON: Have you seen the Japanese version?

BB: Nope.

NON: It’s absolutely stunning. It has this paper cover, and then you take off the paper cover and one whole side is this psychedelic, day-glo picture of Sharon Tate. Turn it over, and the whole other cover has a psychedelic, day-glo cover of Charles Manson. Then when you open it up, it’s just beautiful inside.

BB: I have the one with the little dunebuggies on the cover. I wish I had that one… what are some of your favorite noise bands?

NON: I don’t know. I haven’t heard many recent noise bands so I don’t know. Most of the bands seem to pattern themselves after somebody else. It seems like people who were doing that stuff in 1977 are still my favorite.

BB: You toured with THROBBING GRISTLE. What were they like?

NON: They were great. I think they’re one of the best live bands I’ve ever seen. They’re really good. It was a really good atmosphere to have played.

BB: Do you prefer recording to performing?

NON: They’re both completely different, it’s kind of hard to compare them. I go through phases with everything. Sometimes it’s really fun to go out and do a bunch of live performances, then that gets tedious, then it’s like recording is the actual creative process.

BB: Your show "Total War" in Osaka, Japan is one of the most professionally executed live shows I’ve ever seen (on video), and I had heard that it was put together very quickly. How did you get it together so fast and who came up with the theme?

NON: Well, I came up with the idea behind it, and then we were supposed to go there a early to go into a practice space and practice with all those people, and they were all very professional. They are all people who play a whole bunch of different instruments, and so they just picked it up really quick.

BB: I often wonder what it would be like to have friends and associates that are dedicated enough to make a vision like that come true. What was the audience reaction to the show? Were they expecting something different?

NON: I don’t know what they were expecting. I don’t know how familiar they were with my stuff because I was on the bill with CURRENT 93 and most of them came to see CURRENT 93, but they were very appreciative. They enjoyed it very much.

BB: Was this the first time you met Douglas P. from DEATH IN June?

NON: Yes it was.

BB: You’ve done many projects together since that time, and he was one of the drummers for that show. Can we be expecting a new joint effort to be released soon?

NON: No. The SCORPION WIND project that I just went to Australia to record with him just came out.

BB: I just got that one. It’s great.

NON: Thank you. But, I’m trying to talk to him. He wants to do an album of cover versions, has for years, and I just left a message on his machine saying that he should come to Denver and record his album of cover versions there, and we could do some stuff together in the recording studio, and then I could set up a whole tour of the United States. So, hopefully I’ll hear from him about that sometime soon.

BB: What kind of person is he?

NON: He’s very strange and he’s very inspiring to be around. Whenever we get together absolute magical stuff happens, and you know, he has the image of being a really difficult person. I guess he can be really difficult, but he’s always been great to me so…

BB: Another person you met for that show in Osaka was Rose McDowall who is your partner in a band called SPELL, which is my absolute favorite band in the world. How did you find Rose and what made you form a band so different from everything else you were doing?

NON: Well, I always wanted to do that and I always wanted to do a record where it would be me and a girl. Then at a certain point, just when STRAWBERRY SWITCHBLADE (Rose’s band) was first in the papers, and knowing that we had mutual friends, I kind of already knew that she was the one I wanted to do this with. Then, the second I saw pictures of STRAWBERRY SWITCHBLADE I said, this is the girl I want to do my pop project with. It took years and years, but I called her overseas and pitched the idea to her and she thought it sounded good. And, she had heard good stuff about me from all of our mutual friends, and then the first time I met her was in Osaka, Japan.

BB: So that was the first time you performed with her.

NON: Yeah, and you know, just like the rest, she could play drums too, and they were all on the same wavelength so I didn’t really have to explain anything. They knew exactly what I was talking about.

BB: She has a beautiful voice. You sound pretty good too. I like to listen to the B side of "Big Red Balloon" when I can’t sleep. It’s very relaxing.

NON: I can see how that would be.

BB: Are all the SPELL songs covers?

NON: They are. Except for the song on the single called "The Ever Constant Sea", and that’s a Rod McKuen poem that Rose made up the music for.

BB: Did you select all of the songs yourself?

NON: Yeah I did. I chose all the ones that I thought were the absolute best things, and all kind of in the same theme. Then I sent Rose a tape and she went through it and there were certain songs that she didn’t particularly care for and other ones she really liked.

BB: You’re really into 60’s and 70’s music?

NON: Yeah, but I mean, I like all sorts of different music. I kind of grew up in the 60’s so I have a real affinity to that.

BB: Did you listen to Bobby Sherman when you were younger?

NON: I always really liked Bobby Sherman, but when he was in his prime I didn’t have a record player, but I always really liked him. I loved his TV show when it was on.

BB: I was gonna ask you about that next.

NON: Do you remember what he drove around in?

BB: No, I don’t.

NON: You know the Partridge Family had the bus with the Mondrian. He drove a psychedelic hearse.

BB: I remember that there was a show and that my sisters thought he was hot. Actually, Bob Zeiger wanted me to ask you if you know when the Partridge Family Temple book is coming out?

NON: I don’t know if there is a Partridge Family Temple book.

BB: Because he said that he heard you were to help in writing it.

NON: No, Shaun (Partridge) keeps talking about putting out a Partridge Family Temple newsletter, and then Adam Parfrey wanted to put out a CD of Partridge Family Temple sings.

BB: Could you tell me a little bit about the organization?

NON: It’s just a religion based on the old TV show where the characters of the TV show are god archetypes. Keith is the god of war, Laurie is the virgin whore, Danny is the trickster.

BB: Did you know that the snake logo that is on the cover of your "Blood & Fame" release is the logo for the new TV show "Millennium" as well?

NON: Yeah I did. A bunch of stuff that used to be musical underground, or has been for 20 years, is starting to come into the mainstream and like TV shows. Like COIL had been announcing for years, I don’t know if they’ve put it out yet, a record called "International Dark Sky", and there’s a new program on TV now called "Dark Sky".

BB: COIL did some soundtracks, didn’t they?

NON: They’ve done a bunch of that kind of work.

BB: Have you ever done any movie soundtracks?

NON: This movie called "Grace of My Heart" has two of my songs in it, so one of them is on the actual CD soundtrack, and there was a bit of my music in a thing called, "Gas, Food, Lodging". Then I’m gonna do the whole soundtrack to this movie thing that I did just recently in Australia.

BB: Oh, tell me about that?

NON: It’s called "Pearls Before Swine" directed by this guy named Richard Wolston Croft, and I play a fascist hit man that’s into the S&M underground. He’s into kinky sex.

BB: I see. Will it be released in the states?

NON: Hopefully. Once he’s got a rough cut of it he’s gonna enter it into some festivals here. It looks like a million bucks so it’ll probably get picked up by somebody.

BB: Something I picked up, or should I say out, of the context of the Charles Manson CD "Manson Speaks", was his mentioning your name in a rather hostile way. Why does Charlie refer to you as a black pimp?

NON: Because I came to him in San Quentin and said, "You look like somebody who likes a lot of pretty clothes. You’re gonna come work for me." No. I have no idea why he said that. He speaks in riddles and rhymes.

BB: Are you still in contact with him?

NON: I haven’t been in contact with him for like ten years or something. It’s been a long time.

BB: Did you get to see him a lot?

NON: I used to be on his list until I was kicked off because I went in and had a bullet in my pocket, and so they wouldn’t let me go into the penitentiary anymore.

BB: I had heard that when you lived with Michael Moynihan (BLOOD AXIS) that the secret service pounded on your door and gave you trouble for something having to do with Charlie. Is that true?

NON: It’s just like, they made up a lie to get into our house. It happened about a week after I was on this Christian radio program with Bob Larson. Right after I was on there the secret service came around and they made up a bunch of lies. First they came around and said that I had information about a murder. That I had seen a black man kill somebody and they wanted to come in and talk to me about it. It was just like, still to this day, nobody knows why they came there, and I think the reason was because they just wanted to get into the house and see what was going on because they felt we were a couple of unsavory characters. But I’m sure it had nothing to do with Charlie Manson.

BB: Another charismatic famous person I wanted to ask you about is Anton LaVey from the Church of Satan. How did you come to know him and what type of person is he?

NON: He’s a really great guy. I think I met him in 1987, but I grew up on his books and had pictures of him on my wall when I was a kid, and when I moved to San Francisco, people were always saying, "Oh, you should meet Anton LaVey because he’s into the exact same things you’re into," and eventually I did meet him at this film festival, and he knew who I was and had read about me. We’re both into girl groups and little Peggy March so we hit it off straight off the bat.

BB: What is your relationship with him now?

NON: I’m a Magister in the Church of Satan and a member of the Council of Nine which is the ruling body of the Church of Satan.

BB: But, he’s the head honcho.

NON: Yes.

BB: On the "Might" LP and "In the Shadow of the Sword" you use the writings of Ragnar Redbeard. When did you come to know of his work and what inspired you to spread his word?

NON: I think it was 1985 or 86 when I first encountered his book. I just got into the book so much because so much of it was so similar to stuff I’d been saying for years. Some of the things he’d said, I had said in precisely the same words, so it was kind of exciting cause I’d always intended tow rite a book about all that, and then when I saw his book I thought, "Hell, somebody already wrote this book 100 years ago." So, I’d been using bits and pieces of his on several albums and then at a certain point I thought, "I’m just gonna do a whole CD entirely dedicated to Ragnar Redbeard’s writings and get it out of my system once and for all."

BB: I have his book. It’s really powerful poetry, but god is it redundant.

NON: Yeah, it’s really the same thing reiterated over and over again. Basically, he could say all he needs to say in a chapter or a paragraph, but he kind of re-states it so that it gets pounded into your head.

BB: I have an 1896 version of his book. Perhaps you’d like to discuss a trade of some sort?

NON: Oh, I’m totally into that.

BB: Speaking of great authors, you wrote a book called "Incredibly Strange Movies" which is about exactly what the title states, and I was wondering if you ever got the chance to work with R.D. Steckler?

NON: Yeah, as a matter of fact, me and Rose did. He keeps promising he’s going t put me in a movie. He wants to do a movie called "Son of Rat Fink which would be a re-make of "Rat Fink a Boo Boo", but it would be about the son of Ron Haydock who was the original Rat Fink. Somebody’s murdered him and I’m trying to track down my father’s killer. In the process I find in the attic this old chest and it has those stupid Rat Fink and Boo Boo costumes. So, I dress up like this super hero in Las Vegas trying to get these organized crime people.

BB: That sounds great.

NON: Every time I talk to him he says, "Boyd. You feel like coming down to Vegas. I still wanna do that movie?"

BB: And you’re like, "I’m there."

NON: Exactly, but he was supposed to do a music video for SPELL for "Big Red Balloon", and one day I was just sitting in my room watching "Incredibly Strange Creatures" and saw that dream sequence which is my favorite thing in the entire history of cinema, and I thought it would be amazing to get Ray Dennis Steckler to do a music video that would look like that dream sequence. So, me and Rose actually flew to Las Vegas to have him make this music video, but it was just a fiasco.

BB: So, it never came out?

NON: Well, they kind of put it out, but nobody showed it because, for a lot of reasons I can’t go into. There was just too many cooks spoiling the broth down there in Vegas. Everybody had a fuckin idea and Rose’s husband had a bunch of ideas, and Steckler was just kind of hand strung.

BB: What is your opinion of Crispin Glover’s acting and music?

NON: You know, he’s doing a movie now with an entire cast of retards, and Adam Parfrey was gonna be in it. I was gonna fly to Salt Lake City to watch it being made, and Adam said he’s just get Crispin to put me in the movie. So, I said great, but it didn’t happen because I was in Australia shooting the other movie while he was doing that, then Adam fell down and hit his head and was out of it for a month or so and he didn’t get to do it either.

BB: Have you ever heard Crispin Glover’s record?

NON: No, I haven’t.

BB: It’s great. He covers the Manson girls singing about how always is always forever and he does "These Boots Are Made For Walking". Oh, and that song about the daring young man on the flying trapeze.

NON: You know, the song that’s in "Grace of My Heart", the guy who plays bass on the original version of "These Boots Are Made For Walking" played bass on our song. He’s the guy who did the famous bass line (Boyd sings it for me).

BB: That song is a #1 karaoke favorite of mine. Especially in Chinese restaurants, except they get mad if you have too much fun. They take their karaoke very seriously. We would even videotape ourselves sometimes and that made them furious.

NON: When I’m in Portland, there’s a white trash bar there where Jim and Debbie Goad live. I went there with them, Adam Parfrey, and Shaun Partridge and we were kicked out for having too much fun.

BB: That’s no fair!

NON: I know.

BB: Did you ever see Crispin’s movie "Twister"?

NON: No, I didn’t.

BB: He’s crazy in it. A fucking genius, and he does a lot of noisy music in it when he’s not interrupting everyone about how he’s going to marry Stephanie or go to Europe a hundred times.

NON: Have you ever seen his first movie "The Orkley Kid"?

BB: No, I thought "River's Edge" was his first movie.

NON: You’re kidding? No, this was like a little short film he did where he’s a guy who wants to be Olivia Newton John. It starts out where he’s dressed up like Olivia Newton John on this cliff late at night, lip synching these songs with his ghetto blaster, and then it just gets weirder and weirder. It’s amazing.

BB: He cracks me up. Lisa Carver is another person who cracks me up. I read her book and I’m laughing out loud, crying almost. When did you meet the lovely Lisa Carver?

NON: It was 1992 or 1993. She first interviewed me when I was in Las Vegas doing the music video with Ray Dennis Steckler. She called me at my hotel room there and did the interview, which was the first interview with me that was in ROLLER DERBY.

BB: The two of you produced a beautiful young man named Wolfgang. Has fatherhood changed your views in any way?

NON: It’s just made me harsher I think. Everybody assumes that it’s gonna make you softer, but it just makes me more intolerant of the world and the direction it’s heading.

BB: You did a really fun record with Lisa’s mom called "Monopoly Queen". Is the song "Let’s Keep It Friendly" a cover?

NON: Yeah. Patrick MacNee and Anna Blackman did that song. They did a couple songs. The other one was called "Kinky Boots" which was a hit in England. I was on BBC radio or something and I was waiting to be interviewed and Patrick MacNee was walking down the hallway and I said, "Hang on, I just did a cover version of this Patrick MacNee song. I gotta tell him." And they said, "You can’t leave the studio, you’re going on any second now." So I was just like should I run out and talk to Patrick MacNee or should I stay and plug my record? I stayed, and I missed Patrick MacNee, but anyway…

BB: Are you working on a new NON record?

NON: I’m thinking of it. I’m waiting to get approval of my budget, and then as soon as that happens I’ll go, and I’ve got a million ideas saved up.

BB: What can we expect?

NON: I don’t know. I’d like to do something that’s all noisy and sounds and no words, but then I’ve got several new songs that I think are really good and they’ve got words. I’m trying to figure out if I should integrate those into it or save them for something different.

BB: Tell me about your record label HIERARCHY. What kind of music are you releasing?

NON: Well, the first thing I put out was called "Hatesville" and it was me, Adam Parfrey, Jim Goad, and Shaun Partridge. And then I’m gonna put out, I was just in Portland and produced whole CD by Shaun Partridge. It’s called "Hatecrime" and it’s really ugly, vile stuff. I mean it’s not even my cup of tea. It will appeal to sickos. Jim Goad is gonna do a thing called "Big Red Goad" where it’s all him doing truck driving songs. He’s gonna finish mixing that up when he’s finished writing his book. Then, I just put a thing out called "Death Gladsome Weddings" which is these hymns and marches from this weird Transylvanian, political, religious sect from the 1930’s, and it’s really great sounding stuff. Oh, I’m also putting out a CD by this guy Ralph Gean who’s this crazy RockaBilly guy who had a couple hits in the 1960’s. He does all these songs like "Homicidal Me" and it’s very wild.

BB: You’ve done extensive traveling in your lifetime. What is your favorite place out of everywhere you’ve ever been?

NON: I don’t know. I think my favorite place is my basement in Denver, Colorado. When I go places, when I go out to have fun, I come home and think, "This is so much more interesting than anyplace outside that I know. Why’d you leave?" But, I enjoy myself every place.